Inversion/non-inversion in wh-questions with long phrases after the wh-words

Question

Can a sentence like this:

"I don't know who the first man that made such and such thing in such and such place was,"

be grammatically correct if we don't put "was" at the end of the long phrase, that is, if we write:

"I don't know who was the first man that made such and such thing in such and such place"?

I can see in Google Books examples that in such cases the verb is often put after the wh-word, but I don't know if there is a grammar rule to support this. Some examples:

"We do not know who was the first man who ascended above a poor and humble people to become Egypt's first king ..."

"... we do not know what was the ultimate judgment of the various members of the community ..."

"I do not know who was the first to suggest a connection between the problem of free will and the breakdown ..."

"I do not know what was the date of this change in me, nor of the train of ideas ..."

"We do not know what was the primitive text from which Codex Bezae derived its Latin or its Greek ..."

"We do not know what was the practice in the days of the monarchy, but the story of Athaliah shows ..."

Answer 1

The basic structure is "I don't know [who the first man [that ... ] was]"

But the long subject inside the subordinate clause may trigger extraposition, whereby it is moved behind the short VP 'was':

I don't know who was the first man that ... .

However, I would use a different extraposition, and move only the embedded relative clause:

I don't know who the first man was that ... .

Answer 2

The length of the interrogative clause has no impact on the basic grammar.

I don't know [who the first man that made such and such thing in such and such place was].

The bracketed expression is a subordinate interrogative clause. Such clauses are introduced by an interrogative word such as "who", "which", "what" etc. and normally no inversion takes place, so the verb "was" occurs at the end of the clause in its basic position after the subject. Now compare the main clause equivalent:

Who was the first man that made such and such thing in such and such place?

Notice that the placement of the interrogative word “who” in initial position has triggered subject-auxiliary inversion with the verb now appearing before the subject, unlike in the subordinate clause where no inversion occurred.

The meaning of the sentence containing the subordinate interrogative is: "I don't know the answer to the question 'Who was the first man that made such and such thing in such and such place"'.

I can't account for the non-standard examples you cited. I wouldn't say that they are ungrammatical, and the meanings are clear, but they do deviate from the normal formulation of subordinate interrogatives.

Answer 3

I don't know who the first man was that made such and such a thing in such and such a place.

Direct Question: Who was the first man that (or who) made such and such a thing in such and such a place.

Because "who" is the subject and "man" is a predicate nominative, move the be verb to the immediate right of "man." Like this:

Indirect Question: who the first man was that (or who) made such and such a thing in such and such a place

Roger

Answer 4

My initial response was made in haste and was misleading at best.

Direct Question: Who was the first man that made such and such a thing in such and such a place?

Indirect Question: who the first man that made such and such a thing in such and such a place was

Indirect Question in a Statement: I don't know who the first man that made such and such a thing in such and such a place was.

Moving the "be" verb (was) to the right of the predicate nominative is a step in the right direction, but what if the predicate nominative is followed by a noun complement such as an adjective clause (as in the above example), a prepositional phrase, an infinitive phrase, or a participial phrase? Then, the "be" verb needs to be moved after the noun complement, as in the above example.

What's interesting about the direct question "Who was the first man ..." and the indirect question "who the first man ..." is that in the direct question "Who" is the subject and "man" is a predicate nominative; and in the indirect question, "who" is a predicate nominative and "man" is the subject.

Another example: Direct Question: Who is the man wearing the blue suit? Indirect Question: who the man wearing the blue suit is Indirect Question in a Question: Do you know who the man wearing the blue suit is?

How about these examples that have no predicate nominative?

Who is there? -> who is there ("there" is an adverb: no change; "who" is the subject in both the direct question and the indirect question) Who is responsible? -> who is responsible ("responsible" is a predicate adjective: no change; "who" is the subject in both the direct question and the indirect question)

Roger