Timeline for Where is the subject in "as was traditional for unmarried women"?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
26 events
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| Feb 23, 2017 at 23:01 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @Gustavson Yes, that's true. But RC's, in English at any rate, only adjoin on one side - in the case of English, on the right-hand side! Still. Interesting post ... | |
| Feb 23, 2017 at 22:54 | comment | added | Gustavson | @Araucaria I understand, but as you know pronouns can have anaphoric (backward) or cataphoric (forward) reference: "This was typical of her times: Jane lived at home her entire life" - "Jane lived at home her entire life: this was typical of her times." | |
| Feb 23, 2017 at 22:45 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @Gustavson I agree about the equivalence - but I'd take that as evidence against Q et al's position here ... | |
| Feb 20, 2017 at 12:29 | comment | added | Gustavson | @Araucaria I know. That was an addition of my own, based on the exact equivalence between "As was traditional for unmarried women, Jane lived at home her entire life" and "Jane lived at home her entire life, as was traditional for unmarried women" (Both clearly mean: This, Jane's living at home her entire life, was traditional for unmarried women.") | |
| Feb 17, 2017 at 20:01 | comment | added | Gustavson | A new downvote again! It seems to me that some people feel so comfortable with their acquired knowledge that they won't even make an effort to see beyond. | |
| Feb 17, 2017 at 0:16 | comment | added | Gustavson | In my comment above I made a typo. I meant to say "...if everything comes down to pragmatics..." | |
| Feb 16, 2017 at 17:26 | comment | added | Gustavson | @EdwinAshworth Well, the opening question asked about the subject. Also, if everything comes does to pragmatics, then what's the use of syntax? I believe grammar is particularly useful to decide whether certain structures are correct or not, and even to decide if they mean the same thing or different things. Have you ever wondered why "as is obvious" and "as is usual" can be set off by a comma, while only "as usual" (not "as obvious") can? Syntax has the answer. Syntax can also explain the difference beween "as required", "as is/was required", and "as it is/was required". | |
| Feb 16, 2017 at 2:22 | comment | added | Edwin Ashworth | I'm indicating that demand for a subject is not always warranted. Compare 'As is obvious, ...' with 'Obviously, ...'. Does it make sense to insist on a subject with these pragmatic markers ('adjuncts', as CGEL calls them)? | |
| Feb 15, 2017 at 17:55 | comment | added | Gustavson | @EdwinAshworth That is indeed a good paraphrase, but quite a few changes have been introduced. "conforming" is a non-finite and, just like other participial clauses, its subject is that of the main clause. In the dependent clause at issue, "was" is a finite verb, and that's a world of difference. Also notice that there must be something pronominal in "as" for you to need to resort to the noun phrase + relative clause "the pattern that was..." | |
| Feb 15, 2017 at 16:51 | comment | added | Gustavson | @sumelic I appreciate it. The point Fowler makes about "it" being incorrect between "as" and a tensed form of "be" is really strong and makes "as" very special. The absence of "it" can then be explained by the presence of the pronoun "as" or, according to the other view presented here (which is also valid), as -- if I'm not mistaken -- the only case of a subjectless tensed verb (was, is, etc.) there is in the language. No doubt "as" is one the trickiest and most versatile words in English. | |
| Feb 15, 2017 at 16:29 | comment | added | Edwin Ashworth | I think that the best analysis is as a shortening of 'Jane lived at home her entire life, conforming to the pattern that was traditional for unmarried women.' The ING-clause here is non-finite and does not have a subject, so why should one be expected for the further-shortened form. | |
| Feb 15, 2017 at 2:58 | history | edited | Gustavson | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Feb 15, 2017 at 2:31 | history | edited | Gustavson | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Feb 15, 2017 at 2:15 | history | edited | Gustavson | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Feb 14, 2017 at 20:43 | comment | added | Gustavson | @BillJ I have read somewhere that "as" can be a sentence relative. I need to find it. It is remarkable that it can be replaced with "which" so easily, isn't it? However, I admit that your analysis is feasible and convincing, too. In grammar, and mainly in syntax, there is not always only one possible option, is there? | |
| Feb 14, 2017 at 20:34 | comment | added | BillJ | So you understand that "as" is not a relative pronoun and therefore no relative clause? The subject is understood as "Living at home one's entire life". | |
| Feb 14, 2017 at 20:30 | comment | added | Gustavson | @BillJ I agree. What I meant to say is that prepositions alone cannot introduce clauses, while conjunctions and pronouns can. The structure above is composed by a preposition and a complement to that prepositon. It is the complement that is a clause. The preposition does not form part of it. | |
| Feb 14, 2017 at 20:24 | comment | added | BillJ | @Gustavson Prepostions can take clauses as complement, and often do, for example "I left because I was tired", "We agreed on how to proceed". | |
| Feb 14, 2017 at 20:15 | comment | added | herisson | Call it a conjunction if you like, then. | |
| Feb 14, 2017 at 20:13 | comment | added | Gustavson | @sumelic Prepositions can never introduce clauses. | |
| Feb 14, 2017 at 20:08 | comment | added | BillJ | "As" can never be a relative pronoun. The clause in question is an adjunct of comparison headed by the preposition "as". It is subjectless, but the subject is recoverable from the matrix and can be paraphrased as "Living at home one's entire life was traditional for unmarried women". | |
| Feb 14, 2017 at 19:48 | comment | added | Gustavson | For a start, you may want to have a look at the quite similar example of "as" as a pronoun under 14. here: dictionary.com/browse/as?r=66 | |
| Feb 14, 2017 at 19:43 | comment | added | Edwin Ashworth | Could you provide supporting evidence from a recognised work on grammar? | |
| Feb 14, 2017 at 19:41 | history | edited | Gustavson | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Feb 14, 2017 at 19:38 | review | First posts | |||
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| Feb 14, 2017 at 19:36 | history | answered | Gustavson | CC BY-SA 3.0 |