Timeline for Pronunciation of Emma and Emma's
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
39 events
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| S Jan 4 at 3:02 | history | bounty ended | CommunityBot | ||
| S Jan 4 at 3:02 | history | notice removed | CommunityBot | ||
| Jan 2 at 5:48 | history | edited | Heartspring | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Jan 2 at 2:11 | history | edited | tchrist♦ |
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| Dec 27, 2023 at 23:49 | history | edited | tchrist♦ |
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| S Dec 27, 2023 at 1:11 | history | bounty started | tchrist♦ | ||
| S Dec 27, 2023 at 1:11 | history | notice added | tchrist♦ | Canonical answer required | |
| Mar 21, 2023 at 16:17 | history | edited | Heartspring | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
some minor edits to body text, also, integrated links are prettier :) Feel free to roll back, though
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| Mar 21, 2023 at 15:49 | review | Close votes | |||
| Mar 22, 2023 at 0:31 | |||||
| Mar 21, 2023 at 15:37 | comment | added | Peter Shor | @FinAnalyst There are other English vowels that lengthen at the ends of words, as well. Compare happy and happiness. | |
| Mar 21, 2023 at 15:36 | comment | added | Peter Shor | @FinAnalyst: You ask: "So there is no IPA symbol for this?" It's not a separate phoneme. The short vowel in Emma's and the somewhat longer vowel in Emma are both allophones of the phoneme /ə/ (which is longer at the end of a word), so we use the same IPA symbol for them. If you really wanted to, you could the symbol [ˈɛmə̆z] for Emma's ([ə̆] can be used in IPA for an extra-short vowel) and [ˈɛmə] for Emma. This would be a narrow transcription and not a phonemic transcription, and so not used by dictionaries. | |
| Mar 21, 2023 at 15:26 | history | edited | Laurel♦ | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Mar 21, 2023 at 12:34 | comment | added | Peter Shor | @FinAnalyst: The word Emma has a longer vowel than Emma's, but it's still an /ə/ and not an /ɑː/. Compare the word Emma with the word enchanting in your first link youtu.be/LIYiThAyY8s?t=288. They are clearly different vowels to my ears. The length of the vowel is not the only difference between /ə/ and /ɑː/. | |
| Mar 21, 2023 at 6:01 | history | migrated | from linguistics.stackexchange.com (revisions) | ||
| Mar 20, 2023 at 16:35 | comment | added | FinAnalyst | @Tristan Though the question is about why they don't use longer vowel for Emma's. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 16:33 | comment | added | FinAnalyst | @Tristan I used schwa because it is the sound I know for uh sound / the shorter vowel you mentioned. I am not an Linguist let alone IPA expert. I am working on accent reduction. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 16:25 | comment | added | FinAnalyst | @Tristan "all longer than the truly short vowel in Emma's " - This is what I was talking about. So there is no IPA symbol for this? I used ɑ: because it sounded like that to my ears. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 15:59 | comment | added | Sir Cornflakes | @user6726 Most of them, indeed. BTW, I am always ready to change my mind when a good answer containing a sufficient amount of linguistics appears here. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 15:47 | comment | added | Tristan | @user6726 sure, but when the question uses a framing of this as a schwa, it's probably best to either stick to describing them as schwas, or at least explicitly flag that you're not doing so, and considering them merely unstressed allophones of ʌ | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 15:47 | comment | added | user6726 | @SirCornflakes, is it your view that all linguistic questions about English should be migrated to ELU, unless they invoke a highly sophisticated theoretical concept? | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 15:46 | comment | added | Tristan | the British tokens definitely sound longer in Emma than Emma's, but the vowel is way too high and front to be called [ɑ:]. As for cause it may be related to the fact the syllable is open in Emma, but closed in Emma's. In the US and AU tokens it also sounds too high to me, maybe nearer variously ɐ, ʌ, or ä depending on the speaker, all longer than the truly short vowel in Emma's | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 15:45 | comment | added | user6726 | Or, anything phonemically /ə/ is just as reasonably called [ʌ] when stressed. There's no phonological basis for imputing specifically /ʌ/ quality to the phoneme. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 15:40 | comment | added | Tristan | @user6726 note that most Americans don't actually have a distinction between /ʌ/ & /ə/, so anything phonemically /ʌ/ is just as reasonably called phonemically a schwa (for the American tokens) | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 15:23 | comment | added | FinAnalyst |
@user6726 Thanks, it is from Youglish. Everbody says that they don't hear ɑː in Emma but I do. It is long as opposed short sound in word Emma's. I am not a Linguist btw.
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| Mar 20, 2023 at 15:23 | comment | added | user6726 | Everybody. Your Tube examples do not all have the same phonetic final vowel. The first US example is close to canonical [ɑ], the third is closer to [a]. Nice collection of tokens BTW. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 15:19 | comment | added | FinAnalyst | @user6726 Did you direct that comment to me or to the others? | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 15:14 | comment | added | user6726 | Y'all are listening phonemically, not phonetically. There are many different vowel qualities in that collection. None has the vowel of "pa", "law", so it is phonemically /ʌ/ → further reduced to some vague vowel in final unstressed position. The tokens in those recordings are not internally identical – they are not "absolute [ɑ]" or anything else. It is whatever phoneme you use for unstressed noun-round non-high final vowels. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 15:14 | comment | added | FinAnalyst | @ColinFine Check the Aussie one please. What do you mean by lowered final vowel? | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 15:07 | comment | added | Colin Fine | I've listened to the first two links that you added for "Emma", and I hear perhaps a slightly lowered final vowel, but definitely not /-ɑː/. I haven't listened to any more. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 14:15 | comment | added | Tristan | @ColinFine ime that very lowered and backed schwa is more of an Essex "chav" feature than a London one | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 13:58 | comment | added | Tristan |
this could really do with links to examples where you hear a clear /ˈɛmɑː/. None of the examples I went through here youglish.com/pronounce/Emma/english? had a full /-ɑː/
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| Mar 20, 2023 at 13:57 | comment | added | Tristan | @JanusBahsJacquet I definitely wouldn't go that far about the pronunciation of cinema. I've only 28 and pronouncing it with a full vowel sounds entirely natural to me | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 13:54 | comment | added | FinAnalyst | @ColinFine I hear it in both US and UK. Please checkout the samples I mentioned above. The sound of a ending in the word Emma's is shorter compared to the word Emma. I don't know the right IPA symbol to illustrate this. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 13:22 | comment | added | Colin Fine | @FinAnalyst: Of course you hear it in your ears. We hear everything in our ears. I meant, what part of the English-speaking world do you hear it in? But actually, now you say that, I think there is a (perhaps stereotypical) London teen accent that has /-ɑː/ in a lot of words. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 13:15 | comment | added | FinAnalyst | @ColinFine I hear it in my ears. I have very sharp ear. The ending of Emma has that long ɑː sound instead short schwa. I am not an expert in IPA. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 13:12 | comment | added | Colin Fine | I certainly say /ˈsɪnəmɑː/ when it is final in a breath-group. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 13:11 | comment | added | Colin Fine | This may be a regional thing, or even a particular person's preference. Where do you hear /ˈɛmɑː/? | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 13:02 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | Wiktionary is not incorrect. I at least have never heard anyone pronounce the name Emma as /ˈemɑː/ in English. There is a somewhat similar word that does have this option: the word cinema is most commonly pronounced /ˈsɪnəmə/ everywhere nowadays, but in the UK, it used to be (and among some older speakers still is) the norm to pronounce it /ˈsɪnəmɑː/. But that doesn’t apply to Emma, which has only ever been /ˈemə/ in recent history. | |
| Mar 20, 2023 at 12:05 | history | asked | FinAnalyst | CC BY-SA 4.0 |