Timeline for Are what-cha and arent-cha examples of elision?
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| Oct 5, 2014 at 13:29 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 5, 2014 at 13:25 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @tchrist It's not that I think /ɛ/ is 'bad' or something, it's just not what is standard for the transcription of British English. If the standard changes to /ɛ/ at any point, I'll use that - but it hasn't, not yet anyhow ... Here's the link to the 8th Edition of Gimson 2014. You can check out what's used there. 7th page in. Gimson 2014 | |
| Oct 5, 2014 at 13:07 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @tchrist If you read the links above, you'll find that nobody has taken a blind bit of notice of what Upton did with Oxford in terms of changing the transcription of /e/ to /ɛ/. The Dress vowel is standardly /e/ in British English transcription, and Australian, NZ. (In SA both exist side by side). I can't use /ɛ/ in my professional life - either as an academic or as a teacher, because no one would be able to tell which system I was using. In Gen Am it makes sense to use /ɛ/ because Dress in Gen Am is much lower than British English. RP Dress is halfway between Cardinals 2-3 (used to be 2). | |
| Oct 5, 2014 at 12:45 | comment | added | tchrist♦ | Did you forget to check debt? It is not /det/ and this is my point. Why won’t you acknowledge this? | |
| Oct 5, 2014 at 12:06 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @tchrist Here also's Well's discussion of International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) transcription. At the bottom, sections 6 and 7, you'll find a description of the Standard system, and a discussion of Upton's departures for the COD. Section 7's basically a summary of why Upton's changes have had little or no traction in academic journals or other British publications, apart from the changes to Square and Trap vowels, which were already on the cards, and which were recently adopted in Cruttenden's 2014 ed of Gimson. IPA trans | |
| Oct 5, 2014 at 11:28 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @tchrist You may find this useful for deciphering British English transcriptions. It's the standard system used by the majority of British English publications including academic journals: Phonetic symbols for English Here is some notes on transcription by John Wells. Pages 8-11 explain the history of the transcription of English vowels in both American and British English p.8-11 History of English vowel transcription. | |
| Oct 5, 2014 at 10:16 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 5, 2014 at 1:10 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @tchrist We don't use a single symbol to represent diphthongs, because it's, erm, not a very good idea - read - Wells. So, I checked to see if the OED has changed their transcription - and it hasn't: date /deɪt/ It says Brit: /deɪt/ U.S.: /deɪt/ Here's the link:OED'date' transcription | |
| Oct 5, 2014 at 0:57 | comment | added | tchrist♦ | @Araucaria No, “you” do not. Please consult virtually any OED IPA transcription for what “you” do. Then go read about minimal pairs for those, too. Again, see the OED: date and debt do not sound like, and it is not the offglide that’s doing that. I am totally stunned that you pretend e and ɛ allophones of a single phoemic /e/. You just create confusion through your stubborn refusal to recognize established practice on these matters. | |
| Oct 5, 2014 at 0:44 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @tchrist What d'you mean they both exist, anyway? We use /e/ for that vowel and you guys tend to use /ɛ/. It's the same phoneme!!! | |
| Oct 5, 2014 at 0:36 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @tchrist Did you not see that that was the Cambridge Dictionary transcription? The link's right there .. | |
| Oct 5, 2014 at 0:26 | comment | added | tchrist♦ | Then you have done it wrong, given that /e/ and /ɛ/ both exist phonemically in English. Minimal pairs are easily found. In any event, the OED has /ɛ/ in the stressed syllable of denture, and you should, too. | |
| Oct 4, 2014 at 21:48 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | T@tchrist There is in our transcription! And we invented the vowel quadrilateral in the first place! : /ˈdentʃəz/ denture And the reason for using the 'e' symbol for that phoneme is well described by Wells. | |
| Oct 4, 2014 at 21:41 | comment | added | tchrist♦ | There is no /e/ in denture. Please stop writing that. It is the wrong phoneme. | |
| Oct 4, 2014 at 20:55 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 4, 2014 at 20:49 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @tchrist Thanks, - completely different to British English! | |
| Oct 4, 2014 at 20:46 | comment | added | tchrist♦ | Both what and that each have stressed and unstressed variants. In the unstressed versions, they share a common vowel — the fully reduced schwa — but in the stressed ones, they do not. As a relative pronoun, what can be unstressed, but not in sentence-initial position as a wh-question word. | |
| Oct 4, 2014 at 20:37 | comment | added | tchrist♦ | The old kids’ joke “Knock knock. Who’s There? Orange? Orange who? Orange ya glad I didn’t say banana!” illustrates that the same thing happens in both sequences aren’t you and orange you: the [n] nasalizes the vowel a bit (gives it a twang) and gets somewhat lost in the collision, rendering rhymes especially challenging. Also, you cannot use a schwa in a stressed syllable: it has to be [ʌ], which is how we actually say it. | |
| Oct 4, 2014 at 20:30 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @Mitch it's with a 'z'. I call her 'Betty' myself ... :) | |
| Oct 4, 2014 at 20:27 | comment | added | Mitch | @tchrist 'Mrs. Windsor'? | |
| Oct 4, 2014 at 20:27 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 4, 2014 at 20:27 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @tchrist Thanks Am Eng not my strongest point. Thtas's what I'd have thought but nicked it off a uni website! Any other insights I should be aware of? | |
| Oct 4, 2014 at 20:25 | comment | added | tchrist♦ | /ɑrəntʃu/ has too many syllables: the schwa is spurious. Also, you’ve gone and spelt ER2’s name wrong. She will not be amused. | |
| Oct 4, 2014 at 20:21 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 4, 2014 at 17:44 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 4, 2014 at 17:18 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 4, 2014 at 17:13 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 4, 2014 at 15:54 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 4, 2014 at 1:56 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 3, 2014 at 13:16 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @Mitch I think what tchrist is getting at, is that the vowel there, if there is one, will be a schwa /ə/. It will never be a /e/ as in "denture", for example. (In this position though there's very unlikely to be a vowel there, or at least in British English, because the tongue is already on the alvoelar ridge from the /d/ and it will just stay there for the /n/ while the velum shifts to allow air to pass through the nasal cavity). | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 12:50 | comment | added | Mitch | @tchrist sure, in regular speech, the /n/ or /nt/ or /?nt/ or /dnt/ is by itself syllabic. But 'never' is a bit extreme. In deliberate articulate speech (which is admittedly rare) there is something of an /e/-like vowel. | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 10:27 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 3, 2014 at 9:38 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @Mitch Quite right, I was thinking in British English of course. AmE doesn't have /tju/ or dju/ sequence that appears in GB words like tube, student, or . so you have /tu:b/ for example and we have /tʃu:b/. | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 4:29 | comment | added | tchrist♦ | @Mitch There is never, ever any /e/ phoneme in student, so –1 to your comment for pretending there is. | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 0:11 | comment | added | Mitch | In AmE, 'student' in deliberate articulated speech is pronounced /stu:dent/ (that is, not /stju:dent/). So there is no assimilation of /tj/ to /tʃ/. In regular AmE speech it becomes /stu:?nt/ or /stu:ent/ or a dental flap or whatever happens to the 'd'. | |
| Oct 2, 2014 at 23:45 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 2, 2014 at 23:39 | history | answered | Araucaria - Him | CC BY-SA 3.0 |