Timeline for Are what-cha and arent-cha examples of elision?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
25 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jun 13, 2021 at 0:00 | history | tweeted | twitter.com/StackEnglish/status/1403864777244516352 | ||
| Jun 12, 2021 at 16:38 | history | edited | tchrist♦ |
edited tags
|
|
| Oct 24, 2014 at 22:58 | comment | added | Andrew Leach♦ | I've rolled back the edit in order that the question is coherent and matches the existing answers. Please don't change a question beyond recognition -- and in this case, the result of the edit would normally be instantly closed as "Unclear what you're asking". | |
| Oct 24, 2014 at 22:58 | comment | added | tchrist♦ | @JanusBahsJacquet I can see plenty of folks thinking that betrayal, beach rail, beet rail, and bee trail all sound pretty close to alike when they say them (that is, all have [tʃ] there), even though I am not one who does so when I say them myself: no Rallidae were beaten on my watch. | |
| Oct 24, 2014 at 22:57 | history | rollback | Andrew Leach♦ |
Rollback to Revision 2
|
|
| Oct 24, 2014 at 22:21 | history | edited | SRK | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
deleted 111 characters in body; edited title
|
| Oct 5, 2014 at 13:31 | history | edited | Araucaria - Him |
added phonetics and phonology tags (ditched grammar to make room)
|
|
| Oct 4, 2014 at 5:07 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | @tchrist You do get near-minimal pairs like “betrayal” and “bitch, rail…” (not a good example, but you get my drift. 7 AM is way too early to think of good examples). | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 23:38 | comment | added | tchrist♦ | @JanusBahsJacquet Distinguishing /tʃr/ and /tr/ may well be instinct for you, but I don’t know if it would be were you a monoglot. The accounts of children not understanding why tree is not spelled chree “like it sounds” derive from real life, and are not uncommon in English-only speakers of certain accent characteristics like those who say [tʃɻʷ]. You won’t find any minimal pairs in English between words starting with /tʃr/ and those starting with /tr/, because there in fact exists not a single English word spelled chr- that isn’t pronounced /kr/. And yes, I did look. :) | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 23:12 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @srk I'm writing you a full-blown answer including excerpts from Her Majesty, Queen Elisabeth II of England's own speech and a link to a video of her speaking -so please come back and have a look at it in a bit!! :) | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 19:21 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | @JohnLawler /tʃr/ and /tr/ are certainly distinct to me, though I suspect not in very rapid speech. If we’re talking about true/chew, where it’s /tr/ versus /tʃ/ with no /r/ at all, the difference is even greater, and that distinction would be maintained even in rapid speech. Only time I’d not distinguish those would be while in a post-dentist drug-induced stupor. | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 19:18 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | @DJClayworth Wotcha or wotcher usually means ‘what cheer’, as in the somewhat quaint greeting (cf. Tonks in the Harry Potter series: “Wotcher, Harry?”. I don’t recall seeing the contracted form of ‘what [are] you’ spelled any other way than whatcha. | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 17:20 | comment | added | DJClayworth | I believe 'what-cha' is normally written as 'wotcha', if that's any help. Which it probably isn't. | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 15:05 | comment | added | John Lawler | Correct. A postvocalic /r/ is not the same as a postconsonantal one. But straighforward yodation does the job just as well. Like I said, "similar story". Not the same story. | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 9:39 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @JohnLawler, SRK But the most important factor's the one you missed out /t/ and /j/. /wɒtʃə dɪd/ never had an /r/ in the fist place. After all where's the post-'t' /r/ in "aren't you"? Or where's the /r/ in "What you" i.e. "What you need". /r/ plays no role in the yod-coalescence in these examples. Sorry :( | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 4:37 | comment | added | John Lawler | @tchrist: Yes, I'm in consultation with a bunch of linguists who're writing a new HBO series on Proto-Indo-European etymology called Game of Phones. | |
| Oct 3, 2014 at 4:28 | comment | added | tchrist♦ | @JohnLawler The coronal consonants all do take a beating — palatalization, affricatization, and more — when followed by high vowels or glides in all forms of speech, and not just across morphemic boundaries, either. I’m thinking of what the long years have done to words like conscience, coercion, contortion, natural, sure, sugar, casual, censure, pressure, mission, Asia, treasure, evasion, erosion, elation. It’s so common that it is more noted in its absence, like when people bend over backwards to stop it from happening naturally in words like issue or tissue — or didju. | |
| Oct 2, 2014 at 23:40 | answer | added | L. Alexandra | timeline score: 1 | |
| Oct 2, 2014 at 23:39 | answer | added | Araucaria - Him | timeline score: 3 | |
| Oct 2, 2014 at 23:30 | comment | added | John Lawler | Do they? Everybody uses assimilation all the time, kids included. When you study phonetics, you'll find hundreds of other places where it occurs; and hundreds of other phenomena besides assimilation, too. Though it is awfully common. | |
| Oct 2, 2014 at 23:22 | comment | added | SRK | @JohnLawler thank you for clearing that up for me. Do you happen to have any thoughts on why children use assimilation particularity with regard to "what-cha" and "aren't-cha"? | |
| Oct 2, 2014 at 22:54 | comment | added | anongoodnurse | @JohnLawler - When my eldest was learning to read/write, he insisted on writing train as chrain. He eventually explained, "No, choo-choo-chrain!" | |
| Oct 2, 2014 at 22:27 | comment | added | John Lawler | Not "elision". That's way too general, and just means something's missing, without stating what, or where, or how it happened. The frequent contractions of What are you and Aren't you to /'wətʃə/ and /'arntʃə/ (spelled variously -- there is no standard spelling for noncanonic contractions) are examples of Assimilation. Contraction to What're you /'wətryu/ fusing to /'wətʃu/ (because /tr/ is retroflexed and indistinguishable in speech from /tʃr/ -- try distinguising true and chew), and then final /u/ reducing to /ə/ gives you "what-cha". Similar story for "arent-cha". | |
| Oct 2, 2014 at 22:20 | review | First posts | |||
| Oct 2, 2014 at 22:45 | |||||
| Oct 2, 2014 at 22:17 | history | asked | SRK | CC BY-SA 3.0 |