Timeline for What is the definition of "iat" in Commissariat/Secretariat
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17 events
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| Oct 1, 2013 at 7:25 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | You're right—there are full paradigms in Greek, too. Which would imply an o/e alternation not otherwise found with this suffix. Must investigate a bit further—for some reason, I never really thought much about this before. | |
| Oct 1, 2013 at 2:03 | history | edited | Cerberus - Reinstate Monica | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 1, 2013 at 1:36 | history | edited | Cerberus - Reinstate Monica | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 1, 2013 at 1:22 | comment | added | Cerberus - Reinstate Monica | @JanusBahsJacquet: Not sure I understand entirely, but do you mean words like praktos, "that can be done, that is done"? They work like regular adjectives of the 1st/2nd declension, they can take the feminine suffix -(y)a-: archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/… I was taught this -t- was cognate to the Latin -t-. | |
| Oct 1, 2013 at 1:02 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | If I recall correctly, the feminines are an innovation in Latin, a quite logical analogy. I don't think Greek has any feminines with this suffix, but I can't say for sure. | |
| Oct 1, 2013 at 0:44 | comment | added | Cerberus - Reinstate Monica | Another question: I wonder how *-tó- resulted in e.g. actam. Do etymologists explain this as a kind of contraction in PIE or PL of the theme vowel *-ó- with a feminine suffix or theme vowel -(y)a-, so *-tó-(y)a- => -ta-? Or do they reason that forms like actam were only created after PIE, and that (Proto-)Latin had somehow shortened the suffix *-tó- to *-t- at some stage before actam? Or does it make more sense to suppose that the *-ó- was seen as something that could be detached from *-t- if needed already in PIE or whenever the feminine suffix or theme vowel appeared? | |
| Oct 1, 2013 at 0:36 | comment | added | Cerberus - Reinstate Monica | Okay, that analysis of the PIE suffix sounds good to me. I'm not sure about conventions regarding hyphenation in PIE notation (it seems to fluctuate), but I will gladly accept that -tó- is generally written as one. What do you think of this hypothesis: classicists/linguists do not hyphenate inside a morpheme, but they can hyphenate between any (semi-)morphemes; however, they only do so when it seems useful. If you apply that to my answer, my thinking was that the hyphen in *t-us was relevant because -t- is common to both but -us is two different (semi-)morphemes. | |
| Sep 30, 2013 at 22:54 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | [cont’d] At least not within the proto-language itself. It makes more sense for Latin, though you might well ask why not separate the nominative -s then. At some point, separating etymologically distinct elements becomes almost pointless; for example, if you separate magistrātus as mag-i-s-t-r-[ā]-t-u-s, you don’t have much point left in the separation anymore. | |
| Sep 30, 2013 at 22:48 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | Perhaps it is simply because the participial (or adjectival) suffix is always written as *-tó- that the separation jars. Even Szemerényi states that the suffix is likely to be just a thematic variant of the whole set of *-t- suffix forms, though of course it has the decidedly unthematic quality of being invariably stressed and invariably invariable (no o/e alternation). I suppose there can be no doubt that the t present in both *-tó-, *-ti/tei̯-, and *-tu/teu̯- is the same, and that the following vowels are extensions to it; but separating them is just not normally done. [cont’d] | |
| Sep 30, 2013 at 22:07 | comment | added | Cerberus - Reinstate Monica | @JanusBahsJacquet: Ah okay, so you are saying this -tó- cannot be analysed any further? Is it not the same theme vowel as found in, say, *bonus? And can this -t(e)u not be further analysed either? Is there no relation at all between them? I am thinking of Greek -t- but I don't know. (BTW I wasn't analysing the suffix(es) that far back, I was just looking at the way they functioned in the classical period to make new words. One conventionally says participles and abstracts are formed based on the supine stem, in an almost synchronic terminology, disregarding the PIE/PL origins...) | |
| Sep 30, 2013 at 21:31 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | I only dislike it because it is in origin a stressed, non-ablauting vowel—the participial suffix is *-tó- (*-tós/-tóm/-tósi̯o/-tó-ei̯, etc.), while the abstracts have a different (ablauting) suffix, *-tu-/-teu̯. This distinction has been quite lost in Latin, of course, by the initial stress and subsequent vowel changes and gender levellings, so the two appear to be simply -t- + regular paradigmatic endings. | |
| Sep 30, 2013 at 21:26 | comment | added | Cerberus - Reinstate Monica | @JanusBahsJacquet: Hi! Why don't you like it? I did that to separate the participial/supine suffix -t- from the masculine suffix/ending -us (2nd declension, i.e. theme vowel o/u, endings us/i/o/um/o; i/orum/is/os/is): the latter is less relevant and no part of the class of -t-us abstract nouns, which have a different suffix/ending -us (4th declension, i.e. theme vowel -u- plus endings of the 3rd declension: -/(i)s/i/m/e; es/um/bus/es/bus). Or did you just mean some...visually aesthetic dislike of all those hyphens... | |
| Sep 30, 2013 at 21:16 | history | edited | Cerberus - Reinstate Monica | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Sep 30, 2013 at 21:14 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | Beat me to the punchline! (Though I don’t like the way you separate the t from the vowel in the participial suffix … I suppose it can’t really be helped in Latin, but still, it hurts a bit.) | |
| Sep 30, 2013 at 21:11 | history | edited | Cerberus - Reinstate Monica | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Sep 30, 2013 at 21:05 | history | edited | Cerberus - Reinstate Monica | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Sep 30, 2013 at 20:58 | history | answered | Cerberus - Reinstate Monica | CC BY-SA 3.0 |