Timeline for May I please help who(m)ever is next
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
22 events
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| Apr 13, 2017 at 12:38 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
replaced http://english.stackexchange.com/ with https://english.stackexchange.com/
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| Dec 9, 2013 at 14:36 | comment | added | Edwin Ashworth | ..."Whoever" is thus simultaneously head of the NP in the matrix sentence [cf "I must thank your brother"] and subject of the relative clause; the meaning is comparable with "the person who gave me this gift". Since the non-fused "who" is subject of this simpler construction, it follows that "whoever, not *whomever, must likewise be the correct fused relative word. Fused "whomever" would be strictly correct in, for example, "Invite whomever you like". | |
| Dec 9, 2013 at 14:35 | comment | added | Edwin Ashworth | Fowler gives an example of the form (*)“Do not follow he who breaks the law.” saying (I’m sure correctly) that the correct version is “Do not follow him who breaks the law.” Concerning whoever and whomever, BillJ (see above for link) says [amended slightly]: "I must thank whoever gave me this gift" is a fused relative construction. "Whoever" is called a 'fused' relative word because the antecedent and the relative word are fused together instead of being expressed separately as in simpler constructions.... | |
| Aug 1, 2013 at 10:43 | history | edited | Mari-Lou A | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
punctuation
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| Aug 1, 2013 at 10:14 | history | edited | Mari-Lou A | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Aug 1, 2013 at 10:08 | history | edited | Mari-Lou A | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Aug 1, 2013 at 9:48 | history | edited | Mari-Lou A | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added thank you note plus clarifications
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| Aug 1, 2013 at 9:40 | history | edited | Mari-Lou A | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added thank you note
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| Aug 1, 2013 at 9:29 | history | edited | Mari-Lou A | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added thank you note
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| Aug 1, 2013 at 9:24 | comment | added | B. Szonye | @Mari-LouA Don't delete! It might not be correct, but I don't think it's obviously incorrect either. Let the voting system work for you. | |
| Aug 1, 2013 at 9:22 | comment | added | Tim Lymington | @Bradd: Mari-Lou's answer is arguable (either way), but "May I please help she who is next" is plainly mistaken. | |
| Aug 1, 2013 at 9:08 | comment | added | B. Szonye | @AndrewLeach I'm torn. “Help him who is next” does sound natural to me, but I'm swayed by Edwin's reasoning that he/him should agree with the subordinate clause and not the main clause. | |
| Aug 1, 2013 at 9:04 | comment | added | B. Szonye | @Mari-LouA That's much better, although I would simplify it even further and also emphasize the verb: “May I please help she who is next.” By the way, I really appreciate your contributions here – you're an asset to the site. | |
| Aug 1, 2013 at 9:01 | comment | added | Andrew Leach♦ | "He who is next" is an entire idea. If that is used as an object (say, of help) it becomes him who is next. On that basis, whomever would be correct. | |
| Aug 1, 2013 at 8:57 | history | edited | Mari-Lou A | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
hopefully clarified my argument better (it's not that easy!)
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| Aug 1, 2013 at 8:49 | comment | added | B. Szonye | I think you are correct. However, it's hard to follow your reasoning because your clarifying example, “May I please help she and he (which one = anyone) that is next,” looks incorrect. There's too much noise in the middle of the key phrase, “she that is next,” so instead the eye focuses on the awkward “May I please help she....” I recommend dropping the extra words (and especially the parentheses) breaking up the key phrase. | |
| Aug 1, 2013 at 8:48 | history | edited | Mari-Lou A | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Aug 1, 2013 at 8:41 | comment | added | Mari-Lou A | @BraddSzonye But whoever means "anyone" as in: May I help anyone next? That surely is a correct sentence, isn't it? If my answer is wrong, please tell me. But I don't think it is... Maybe I have over-simplified the matter. "May I please help whomever is next" just doesn't sound right. | |
| Aug 1, 2013 at 8:30 | comment | added | B. Szonye | While I think you're correct, I'm not sure that substituting he/him for who/whom is helpful for native speakers in this case. The underlying confusion is that people aren't sure whether to analyze the sentence as “(May I please help him) that is next” or “May I please help (he that is next).” Is whom the object of help, or is who the subject of is? My instincts actually tell me that *“(May I please help him) (who is next)” is correct, even though I'm pretty sure it's wrong when I think it through. | |
| Aug 1, 2013 at 8:30 | history | edited | Mari-Lou A | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Aug 1, 2013 at 8:22 | history | edited | Mari-Lou A | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Aug 1, 2013 at 8:15 | history | answered | Mari-Lou A | CC BY-SA 3.0 |