Do you need a comma before directly adressing someone, when their name is preceded by some short word?

Question

I was wondering which one of these sentences is correct. In the first example, the name of the person we are directly addressing is placed between commas, just as I was taught since forever. In the second, I omitted the comma before the direct address in favor of making the text look cleaner; also, when I read the sentence out loud, I do not pause before saying 'John' (plus, my grammar checker marked the first instance as complex punctuation).

I didn't want to say this out loud, but, John, you must leave.

I didn't want to say this out loud, but John, you must leave.

Another example:

Oh, and, Elizabeth? Can you please go and fetch the bags?

Oh, and Elizabeth? Can you please go and fetch the bags?

If it turns out that the second examples are correct/preferred, then I would appreciate it a lot if someone included some other phrases with words that may also not require a comma between them and the name of the person whom we are addressing. Thanks a lot in advance.

Answer 1

All your examples could be happily be justified and equally, all of them could be shot down… according to the critic's own opinions.

There are no universal rules for the use of commas in modern English.

There were no universal rules in the past, either.

Who doubts that if Chaucer or Shakespeare, Dickens or their contemporaries followed any rules, those rules were their own and not their society's or community's in general?

Those three might have used commas to express differences in the flow of thought where today, we try to use them to express pauses in speech… and who can explain the difference, let alone lay down rules for it?

If I'd written "… differences in the flow of thought, where today,…" with a second comma, what rule would make one more right?