Why 'Germanic Languages' and 'Germanic Tribes'?

Question

I've never been a fan of the word 'Germanic' and it's use to cover all Northern European (except the so-called 'Celtic Fringe') Tribes due to it's overtly political connotations. Can anyone tell me when we started using 'Germanic' as a catch-all for everything deemed northern European (and please not the usual 'it was the Romans'!). Why don't we use the terms Azelian, Maglemosian, Northern Maglemosian or even 'Post Ukrainian Refuge'? I know the answer but it would be really interesting to find out other opinions. I've also notices many question on your site asking why English seems so different from other so-called Germanic languages (except Frisian and West Flemish). A great question but far too controversial for most Historians to even whisper.

Answer 1

You could just as productively ask "why Gaelic culture" and "why Gaelic Languages?" if you find that you don't have the same hesitations with that usage... then your hesitation really is your own political perceptions and not Linguistic.

But let's look at the linguistic effects here though.

You're right, it's not the Romans. The Romans delineated the regions of Gaul and Germania.

As Rome pushed North into what we now think of as "Germanic Lands" they weren't pushing out German tribes, they were pushing out ethnic Gauls. This allowed the Northerly tribes to become dominant, and eventually populate the region.

So when we started 'using 'Germanic' as a catch-all for everything deemed northern European' would be sometime after the fall of Rome, and would logically represent the view from Dark Ages where the region of Gaul had now been brought under completely Germanic dominance. We can also discern that this would have been a name assigned by "Latin Europe" since their neighbors on every Central European border were now Germanic tribes... and whatever lay beyond was either more Germans or dragons and elves.

I'd love to see a citation showing concrete examples of this shift in usage, but the Dark Ages aren't known for their wealth of records.

It's not surprising that English as a language should adopt this naming:

• English is influenced by Latin languages, and may have directly adopted the description of "all those people over there" from Latin Europe.

• Anglo-Saxon itself comes to exist through Germanic peoples supplanting Gaelic tribes. Adopting this phrase would have matched their own self-perspective.

• English is a language with roots in the Jutes, Angles, and Saxons (all peoples arising from this period of dominant "Germanic" tribes in central Europe) and adopting this phrase is a handy way of collectivizing this inheritance.

In any case this perspective the English language has toward "German-ness" fits the island it originated on; a familiar cousin but still an outsider. Any use of the word "German" is by nature an outsider's reference for a grouping of foreign peoples. "Teutonic" works the same way, but from a non-Latin perspective, and has conflicting regional assumptions based again on borders more than maps.

The association of "bonded by similar languages" actually comes to "insiders" much later, the Deutscher Bund of the early 1800's being one of the first historically meaningful gatherings of regional powers based on their shared trait of being Deutsch speaking.

Sometimes the names for things linger longer than the reason or culture behind the name.

Mediterranean

Mesopotamia

Britannia

America

Canada

Africa

Palestine

Sometimes the names just fade away.

Answer 2

Old English was a form of pidgin Frisian (Anglo-Frisian).Frisian was a language developed from the Norwegian region, who probably were the elite who overthrew a Nordwestblock people who were, probably, predominantly genetically haplogroup R-U106/S21 (Rb1) while the Norwegians (at that time ) were predominantly I1, probably.South East / Central / North East England has similar amounts of R-U106 as Southern Norway / Western Denmark / at around 25 to 30%.Modern Fresia has up to 60% R-U106 (Netherlands up to 40% R-U106 overall).

The original language that was associated with the R-U106 would more likely have been a proto-Celtic language rather than a proto-Germanic (Norse / ingueovanic) language.They have been said to be originally Goedels.Gaelic's could be associated with them, although Gaelic is spoken by Rb1-L21 (Norway as a fair amount of Rb1-L21 as well as Iceland - 25% which seems coincidentual if nothing else).Elite I1 Norwegians have evidence of using Rb1-L21 peoples as an underclass or slaves.

R-U106 is a downstream branch of L-11 which is associated with the proto-italo-celtic-germanic languages. The seperate languages spread in different directions from L-11 (predominently) which is presumed to have centred on bohemia (czech rep.) & Austria etc.

Italic/gaulish languages morphed south/ south east(R1b-U152) & Insular Celtic morphed north west (Rb1-L21) & south West (celtiberian / S250) etc.Think the downstream languages of the germanic branch of Rb1-L11 were actually nordicised (from North) & Elbe / East Germanised (from east) later on.Flemish / Frankish language was an off-shoot of a germanised Frisian.The areas associated with those languages are associated with Rb1-U106 as well.

The original Saxons & Angles (possibly a very small tribe with scetchy historical existance) who came from the base of the east side of Denmark today have a higher I1 haplogroup as well as R1a & different Rb1 haplogroups.I1 is low in the UK not higher than 10% in the extreme east of England.There is very low genetic evidence of people emigrating from that area 4% of English genes at most.

I deduce from that the English are not genetically Anglo-Saxons.Saxons were a confederation of tribes anyway, they spread / defeated the tribes in what is know Lower Saxony (north atlantic coast) generally after the main expansion into UK was over.Although an Elite seemed to have taken control in the south of England called Saxons (Wessex etc.).They left little genetic trace,however.

The largest haplogroup in the UK overall is Rb1-L21 around 55%, followed by Rb1-S21 centred in central England (old Mercia) around 20% UK overall.

There is also up to 10% Rb1-U152 which is an Alpine / Italic haplogroup in Southern England.This is associated with the Central / Southern Gauls in today's France.Also associated with the Belgae who have been said to have spread up from the Rhine.The Brython P-Celtic languages are said to have been spread to UK by the Belgae.Alot of pre-Roman Belgic tribes were present in Southern England.Welsh, Cornish are Brython / P-Celtic languages.

The old Kingdom's of Elmet, Cumbria & Strathcyde (Scotland) also definitely spoke Brython as well.The Brythonic languages are mostly associated with Rb1-L21 but seems to been have spread to them by a Alpine Celtic associated Elite.Kent has the highest level of Rb1-U152 in the UK, which may be surprising.Kent is named after the Cantii, Celtic tribe however.