Timeline for TH sound, is it continuant or stop?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
21 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| Apr 20, 2018 at 5:10 | vote | accept | Apprentice | ||
| Jul 25, 2014 at 1:49 | comment | added | tchrist♦ | @Araucaria Intervocalic voiced stops in Spanish actually become not merely fricatives but indeed approximants: [β̞], [ð̪̞], [ɣ˕]. I’ve marked the ð with both the dental diacritic and the approximant one there. That means the minimal triple cada cava caga is very hard for a monoglot native English speaker to catch the differences between. European Portuguese does the same thing with cada; I believe that Brazilian Portuguese may leave it more as an actual voiced stop, but I could not swear that this occurs in all speakers. | |
| Jul 25, 2014 at 1:39 | history | edited | tchrist♦ |
edited tags
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| Jul 24, 2014 at 17:53 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @Aprendice Ah, don't know much about Brazilian Portuguese, I'm afraid! I was wondering where you're living now? I'm wondering if what you're hearing is part of a regional accent? Btw, if you have /n/ before a /ð/ you can pronounce the /ð/ as a /n/! So 'in the end' is often /ɪn ni end/ for native speakers. Quite a lot easier to get your tongue round, especially if your /n/ is already made at the back of your top teeth. | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 17:49 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @JanusBahsJacquet That's very interesting! I still think (in fact I think I've heard Spanish speakers say) that intervocalic /ð/ will sound a bit /d/-like to a Spanish ear. (I'm sure they didn't say 'intervocalic /ð/' though!) I suppose that would need testing. However, it turns out that Aprendice's Brazilian! I know nothing about Brazilian Portuguese phonetics though - or any Portuguese phonetics, in fact. | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 17:32 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | @Araucaria Sadly, the IPA doesn’t seem to really be able to cope with degrees of lowering—the Spanish approximant /ð̞/ is much laxer than any English /ð̞/ native speakers produce in normal speech. The English one is post-dental to a certain degree, but the Spanish one is both lowered and retracted in comparison, with the only dental contact being often on the bottom side of the tongue. (Spanish shares this typologically unusual place of articulation with Danish /ð/.) | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 17:25 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | @JanusBahsJacquet Was going to add /approximant but, word count, had to delete it (plus couldn't get diacritics). In actual fact, though, /ð/ is most often realised an approximant. The tongue makes dental contact but there is an absence of any kind of frication and the intra-oral pressure does not increase - pretty much exactly the same as Spanish intervocalic /d/. See p.141-2 here (especially top of p. 142). Would have used different source but this is pdf (written by Bev Collins though) | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 16:56 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | @Araucaria This is often said, but many seem to forget that intravocalic /d/ in Spanish is more often an approximant than a fricative in normal speech, which is never the case with English /ð/. | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 13:27 | comment | added | Apprentice | Hi Araucaria (South Region?), I am brazilian. Really, with N is impossible to keep. I am confused because with the stop way TH, sounds like D or T, in the continuous way, I can recognize perfectly. But, the most part sounds T or D. Thinking sounds Tinking or Though sounds Dou(gh). Thabk you ^^ | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 11:25 | comment | added | Araucaria - Him | If you're a first language is Spanish, then /ð/ (as in then), will sound like a /d/ to you when it occurs between vowels. The reason for this is that in Spanish the voiced stops /b,d,g/ become fricatives when they occur between vowels. /d/, dental for most Spanish speakers will be realised as a dental fricative [ð], the same as English /ð/. E.g. in /cada vez/ the first word will be realised as [kaða] not [kada]. However, /ð/ in other positions, eg at the beginning of an utterance, won't sound like /d/ like to Spanish speakers because [ð] doesn't occur here as an allophone of /d/ in Spanish. | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 6:55 | history | edited | Andrew Leach♦ | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Tidied up formatting and grammar. I don't think I changed what you want to say.
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| Jul 24, 2014 at 5:00 | comment | added | curiousdannii | This should be migrated to the Linguistics site. It would probably get better answers there. | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 2:27 | comment | added | Apprentice | Thank I think I got, I think they are natural variations, because sometimes is impossible to control. For example, say fast: "The thirty years war happened in the Seventeenth century." The TH after "IN" sounds stops, just a 'tap' like a D, but the others THs are continuous. Thank you, thank you. Good luck with the numbers, I love them too. Loving the number is loving yourself. | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 1:46 | comment | added | Peter Shor | There's the sound at the end of width and eighth, which can be the voiceless dental non-sibilant affricate. But the other sounds of "th" in English get divided into voiced and unvoiced; native English speakers don't perceive any distinctions along the lines of a "z with lisp" and a "harder d". Maybe your native language has your ears trained to distinguish between natural variations in the sound of 'th' which English speakers don't hear. If this is the case, you will have to untrain your ears. | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 1:30 | answer | added | Mitch | timeline score: 5 | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 1:15 | review | Close votes | |||
| Jul 25, 2014 at 0:09 | |||||
| Jul 24, 2014 at 0:34 | comment | added | Apprentice | John, when you say on the fast speak the TH never changes? For example, when you say "THE" always sounds like a Z with lisp or sometimes sounds like a D, but a little harder D? Thank you guys ^^ | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 0:19 | comment | added | Apprentice | I see, on the article tables, there are variations by persons or if the TH comes before some consonants or vowels. I always heard MOTHER like a MODER with the D between teeth hehe Most rarely like MOTHER with TH like Z lisp. I'm confused. | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 0:14 | comment | added | John Lawler | Both English phonemes spelled TH are fricatives (consonants with continuous friction). TH represents the voiceless interdental fricative phoneme /θ/ in theocracy, thistle, ether, thigh, and width, but the voiced interdental fricative phoneme /ð/ in the other, this, either, thy, and with (though with actually swings both ways). | |
| Jul 24, 2014 at 0:00 | review | First posts | |||
| Jul 24, 2014 at 4:33 | |||||
| Jul 23, 2014 at 23:53 | history | asked | Apprentice | CC BY-SA 3.0 |